 Dalantech
Jedi Web Master
Posts: 11743
Age: 45
Loc: Naples, Italy
Reg: Saturday October 8th 2005
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Wednesday April 23rd 2008 08:09 AM - Post#98263
From Above Top Secret
- Some months ago, my contacts in the defense industry had alerted me to a startling development that has escalated to the point of near-panick in nearly all corners of Government security and IT infrastructure. The very-real concern, being investigated by the FBI, is that either the Chinese government or Chinese hackers (or both) have had the benefit of undetectable back-doors into highly secure government and military computer networks for months, perhaps years. The cause: a high-number of counterfeit Cisco routers and switches installed in nearly all government networks that experienced upgrades and/or new units within the past 18 months.
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Will Electronic Arts release a version of Spore for creationists that only has one level that's already finished?  |
Edited by Dalantech on Wednesday April 23rd 2008 08:10 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Hardrive
DLT Staff
Posts: 13738
Loc: Long Beach, CA
Reg: Thursday January 4th 2001
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Wednesday April 23rd 2008 11:24 AM - Post#98264
In response to Dalantech
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robmac
Tech
Posts: 1314
Age: 57
Loc: Lincoln, NE
Reg: Thursday June 27th 2002
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Wednesday April 23rd 2008 06:17 PM - Post#98265
In response to Hardrive
Well, if they do, in a sense, they are copying from the best -- the US of A !
Crypto AG:
For decades, the US has routinely intercepted and deciphered top secret encrypted messages of 120 countries.
Of course, if you want it soft pedalled see Wiki's version:
Crypto AG has been accused of rigging its machines in collusion with intelligence agencies such as ... the United States National Security Agency (NSA),
Note: accused
| A republic if you can keep it. - Benjamin Franklin, 1787 |
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Dalantech
Jedi Web Master
Posts: 11743
Age: 45
Loc: Naples, Italy
Reg: Saturday October 8th 2005
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Thursday April 24th 2008 04:09 AM - Post#98266
In response to robmac
I'm still stunned that the Bush administration pressured ISPs to break the law and now they're trying to pass legislation that's the equivalent of a "get out of jail free card" for the companies that participated. Why hasn't WW been impeached?! 
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No Cropping Zone -macro photography explained.
Will Electronic Arts release a version of Spore for creationists that only has one level that's already finished? |
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robmac
Tech
Posts: 1314
Age: 57
Loc: Lincoln, NE
Reg: Thursday June 27th 2002
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Thursday April 24th 2008 07:19 PM - Post#98267
In response to Dalantech
I saw a Ben Franklin quote a while back to gave me the impression he expected us to go in this direction - something to the effect that we will have a republic until the corruption is so bad it all implodes.
I don't have time to do the research but would like to see what he based that expectation on - cause I do think this country will implode within 50 years or so.
| A republic if you can keep it. - Benjamin Franklin, 1787 |
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matt619
enthusiast
Posts: 880
Loc: San Diego, CA
Reg: Wednesday February 12th 2003
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Friday April 25th 2008 12:39 AM - Post#98269
In response to robmac
That's how the game is played. The point of the story isn't that the chinese are evil or something, but rather that they may have played the game better than us in this instance. Countries have been spying on each other since they were just warring tribes.
But I am impressed that you read a story about the possibility of the national security of your home country being compromised, and your reflex is to immediately blame America. Not for the lack of defense of course, but for simply having an offense. And a world class offense at that. You're of course entitled to your opinion, but I'll be damned if I'll ever understand it.
-M@
| The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen. |
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matt619
enthusiast
Posts: 880
Loc: San Diego, CA
Reg: Wednesday February 12th 2003
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Saturday May 10th 2008 04:23 AM - Post#98344
In response to Dalantech
Update to the story:
"A Cisco spokesman said that the company had investigated the counterfeit gear seized by law enforcement agencies and had not found any secret back door."
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/09/technology /09cis...
-M@
| The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen. |
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robmac
Tech
Posts: 1314
Age: 57
Loc: Lincoln, NE
Reg: Thursday June 27th 2002
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Saturday May 10th 2008 11:49 AM - Post#98345
In response to matt619
That's how the game is played.
Yup, so I provided a link to support your assertion.
blame America
quote me the text that you interpret as 'blame'
your reflex
Reflex has a few definitions so let me assist you in getting the best one.
I've always thought of it in the terms of athletic training. Eliciting a behavior at such a deep level of the brain that one doesn't really feel like one is actually 'thinking' at all, but just 'reacting to stimulus'. That perspective would be simplistic.
This reflex of mine caused many frustrating conversations with my Dad. As an adult, I questioned his point of view. National Security was fundamental to his job. It was also his life. He had totally internalized it. (today it's called 'drinking the Kool-Aid')
The term the "military-industrial complex" was made famous by President Dwight D. Eisenhower in his 1961 farewell address.
I thought this was a path was a poor choice at a young age. long before I heard of the warning. Even when it was putting food in my mouth ! How's that for irony ?
So from one who is more articulate than myself:
"why can't you just accept the idea that there are many authentic and legitimate ways of life and forms of governance, and that what is good for us is not necessarily wanted by others?"
An alternative choice - who needs a world class offense if one has a world class defense ?
| A republic if you can keep it. - Benjamin Franklin, 1787 |
Edited by robmac on Saturday May 10th 2008 01:05 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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 Lanwizard
Mostly Harmless
Posts: 7577
Age: 46
Loc: Tucson, AZ.
Reg: Saturday June 29th 2002
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Saturday May 10th 2008 04:25 PM - Post#98347
In response to Dalantech
The problem is bigger than just having "counterfeit" Cisco gear sprinkled in government/corporate networks across the globe.
Where is it manufactured in the first place? China. They've got their fingers all over it if it's legit or not.
There is a very old adage, "If you want the job done right, you gotta do it yourself".
I've read the PPT slide that 'leaked', it seems that the same factories that make the legit Cisco gear simple work another shift and sell the excess out the back door. The PPT slide also points out that there are also knock-off's floating around too and they can be identified if you know what the genuine stuff should look like.
The bigger problem is that it's manufactured in China and they can fiddle with IOS or even at the chip level if they really wanted to.
Does this sound like paranoia? To a point it does, but when the end game of who dominates the planet is at stake, it's not so far fetched and is easily doable if you are the one doing the manufacturing and your target are your customers who buy the compromised equipment.
There is a price to pay for having all your manufacturing capacity out-sourced overseas to a government you basically don't trust. It's a very high price to pay if your worst fears come true.
Up until the 60's, if you wanted to buy something, it was pretty much assured that it was manufactured in this country and it's quality was high. Since then, we've been selling out our manufacturing jobs to overseas to bargain for lower prices and the quality of US made goods has gone down all the while foreign made goods have been rising in quality.
By moving our manufacturing capacity overseas, we've had to train them on how to manufacture the most complex devices. That knowledge can easily be used to make weapons that can be used against us. I'm not paranoid, this is a simple fact.
If you can design and build a hand held, battery operated GPS receiver up from the chip level to a finished product, you can easily design and build a missile guidance system.
We let the Genie out of the bottle and for what? Lower prices, always.
Wal*Mart is going to be the death of this country because every year when it's time to re-negotiate the sales contract, they insist that they buy at a lower per unit price. At some point, companies must move over seas to meet Wal*Mart's demands or else their products won't be sold by the world's largest distributor and they'll suffer if they don't meet Wal*Mart's demands.
PBS/Frontline did a report a few years ago called, "Is Wal*Mart good for America?" It should be *REQUIRED* that every single American watch that episode.
Watch the full program online, it's free.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/ shows/walm...
The only thing we make in large quantities are hamburgers. Do you want fries with that dead end job?
Well, there are those out there that scream at the top of their lungs that we need free trade, yes we do but we also have to have *fair* trade too.
Is it fair for China to pay their workers only 50 cents an hour and have them work in sweatshops for 12-14 hours a day and then sell those goods on the world markets at a huge markup? No it's not.
Their workers are treated like slaves, the Chinese government reaps huge profits, the local manufacturing capacity is devastated because they simply can't compete with that and they either move overseas or shut down.
Either way, your job is toast. Do you want fries with that toast?
Who wins? China does. Now, there are no jobs here, our economy is tanking and now you are basically forced to shop at Wal*Mart to make ends meet because they have the lowest prices.
There is a word for that, it's called insidious .
Take the time and think about what is happening. That kool-aid The Reverend Jim Jones just gave me sure tastes good, don't it?
Tariffs can balance that and level the playing field.
The knowledge on how to even manufacture something has died with that outsourcing concept too. How many graduating high school seniors know how to operate a lathe, welder or soldering iron?
I'm willing to bet that number is very small.
They sure know how to operate a three ton SUV but they don't know how it works and if it breaks, they don't know how to fix it.
This country needs to build a big frakin wall on it's borders and tariff all imports. Those tariffs should be used to build factories and schools to re-build our manufacturing base and educational system.
If you want to buy a new computer, blender, TV or hammer, it should be made in this country. If you want to buy foreign made goods, fine, you'll just have to pay more for them.
The only way we can trust the supply chain of goods that are used in critical government and business needs is if it's manufactured here where we are in control. For that to happen, we need to have factories that can manufacture it and we need to have educated people to work in those factories.
Somebody told me to go to Hell, I replied back that I can't. He asked me why and I said that the Devil has taken out a restraining order against me.
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Lanwizard
Mostly Harmless
Posts: 7577
Age: 46
Loc: Tucson, AZ.
Reg: Saturday June 29th 2002
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Saturday May 10th 2008 04:37 PM - Post#98348
In response to robmac
It's interesting that we both referenced Kool-Aid but in a different way.
When I replied, only Hardrive's post was there an all the rest came in while I was typing my Lan-Rant.
I was using the Kool-Aid as an allegory as to how Wal*Mart is poisoning this country while you used it as as a metaphor for believing your own propaganda.
Somebody told me to go to Hell, I replied back that I can't. He asked me why and I said that the Devil has taken out a restraining order against me.
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matt619
enthusiast
Posts: 880
Loc: San Diego, CA
Reg: Wednesday February 12th 2003
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Saturday May 10th 2008 05:32 PM - Post#98349
In response to robmac
I don't know you, all I know of you is what I've read of your posts. And from what I've read, my impression is that you seem take every opportunity to criticize my home country.
I'm not here to speculate on your relationship with your father, nor do I care. You can dissect my words and attempt to parse their meaning all you want, in an attempt to....well, I don't know what you're trying to do.
And I'm not even going to argue with you, though I do take issue with several of your points....because this very quickly breaks down into a pissing contest, and it would be a huge waste of time. I believe America has done and continues to do more good than bad in the world, and from what I've read of your posts, you seem believe America always has and continues to do more bad than good for the world. That's a fundamental life view of yours that has been shaped over many years, and there's no way in hell I would be able to change your view of your country via a pissing contest on some random forum.
Simply stated, I don't understand, nor do I appreciate your point of view....though you are entitled to it.
-M@
| The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen. |
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matt619
enthusiast
Posts: 880
Loc: San Diego, CA
Reg: Wednesday February 12th 2003
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Saturday May 10th 2008 05:56 PM - Post#98350
In response to Lanwizard
By moving our manufacturing capacity overseas, we've had to train them on how to manufacture the most complex devices. That knowledge can easily be used to make weapons that can be used against us. I'm not paranoid, this is a simple fact.
I completely agree. If I wasn't so lazy, I would try to find a reference for this, but I remember something about when the military agrees to buy weapons systems, there's a clause in the contract about a certain percentage of components are required to be manufactured in the US. In the past 10 years or so, its become impossible to do so due to the fact that our electronics manufacturing capability has been decimated. What scares me is if/when we find ourselves in a conflict is China, how can we possibly hope to keep our weapons systems operational, when the chinese have enacted a trade embargo with us?
Fortunately, I believe the chinese will find they are they're own worst enemy, I don't believe an all out conflict with them is inevitable, though it is entirely possible. I think it will be interesting watching the relationship between china and russia develop as russia reconstitutes its military.
But, I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens after the '08 olympics. Popular theory is that has been whats been keeping china in check for the last 4 years or so, not wanting to do anything to tarnish their "coming out party" as it were. Maybe we'll see an aggressive move towards taiwan in '09? I don't see the US or anyone else for that matter stepping in to stop it. If that happens, the world balance of power will have shifted overnight. China wouldn't even have to fire a shot, just the one two punch of trade embargo on us, and liquidating its $1trillion plus stash of US tbillz.
Weee!!
-M@
| The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen. |
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Lanwizard
Mostly Harmless
Posts: 7577
Age: 46
Loc: Tucson, AZ.
Reg: Saturday June 29th 2002
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Saturday May 10th 2008 07:07 PM - Post#98352
In response to matt619
Earlier, I talk about how outsourcing damages this country and along comes Bank of America, trying to patent it!
http://techdirt.com/articles/20080505/220 002.shtml
Read the patent, specifically the Background 0003 and 0005 sections.
http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Se ct1=P...
Somebody told me to go to Hell, I replied back that I can't. He asked me why and I said that the Devil has taken out a restraining order against me.
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matt619
enthusiast
Posts: 880
Loc: San Diego, CA
Reg: Wednesday February 12th 2003
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Saturday May 10th 2008 07:15 PM - Post#98353
In response to Lanwizard
But on the other hand, I just today purchased a 500 GB hard drive for $89. Take that national sovereignty!
-M@
| The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen. |
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Lanwizard
Mostly Harmless
Posts: 7577
Age: 46
Loc: Tucson, AZ.
Reg: Saturday June 29th 2002
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Saturday May 10th 2008 07:33 PM - Post#98354
In response to matt619
I would have purchased $89 worth of precious metals, primarily brass, copper and lead. That'll get me lots more than $89 dollars worth of food when the depression hits.
Somebody told me to go to Hell, I replied back that I can't. He asked me why and I said that the Devil has taken out a restraining order against me.
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robmac
Tech
Posts: 1314
Age: 57
Loc: Lincoln, NE
Reg: Thursday June 27th 2002
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Saturday May 10th 2008 07:36 PM - Post#98355
In response to matt619
I believe America has done and continues to do more good than bad in the world, and from what I've read of your posts, you seem believe America always has and continues to do more bad than good for the world.
My view is there's lots of room for improvement. You would disagree with that ?
| A republic if you can keep it. - Benjamin Franklin, 1787 |
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matt619
enthusiast
Posts: 880
Loc: San Diego, CA
Reg: Wednesday February 12th 2003
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Saturday May 10th 2008 07:37 PM - Post#98356
In response to Lanwizard
I don't think the customer would have been happy if I had backed up their computer to $89 worth of brass, copper, and lead 
-M@
| The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen. |
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matt619
enthusiast
Posts: 880
Loc: San Diego, CA
Reg: Wednesday February 12th 2003
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Saturday May 10th 2008 07:51 PM - Post#98357
In response to robmac
My view is there's lots of room for improvement. You would disagree with that ?
Of course not. But like I said, I don't know you, I can only infer your point of view from your posts, and in my opinion, based on your posts, that is not your point of view. Many of your posts are down right offensive to me.......and that's ok...I don't have any right to not be offended, but I gotta tell you, I whole heartedly disagree with your approach to "finding room for improvement".
I'm not trying to start a flame war, and I'm not trying to disrespect you in any way, but if someone is consistently saying things that go against everything I believe in, my silence would be tantamount to agreement. So every once in a while, I gotta get up in your grill and tell you 
-M@
| The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen. |
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robmac
Tech
Posts: 1314
Age: 57
Loc: Lincoln, NE
Reg: Thursday June 27th 2002
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Saturday May 10th 2008 07:53 PM - Post#98358
In response to Lanwizard
believing your own propaganda.
You provide an argument in - not one but, two - cases in which corporate decisions are undermining the national security of the US !
Pot meet kettle !!
| A republic if you can keep it. - Benjamin Franklin, 1787 |
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Lanwizard
Mostly Harmless
Posts: 7577
Age: 46
Loc: Tucson, AZ.
Reg: Saturday June 29th 2002
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Saturday May 10th 2008 09:01 PM - Post#98359
In response to matt619
trying to start a flame war
Hey! That's *MY* job! Git yer own!
Somebody told me to go to Hell, I replied back that I can't. He asked me why and I said that the Devil has taken out a restraining order against me.
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